it is not very easy for an honest person to get a pistol. I own 3 myself, I wouldn't say that they are for personal defense my 12 gauge is a better choice for that, and since my guns are locked in a gun safe and my ammo is locked up seperate from the guns that makes them a bad choice for home defense. I love going to the firing range (owned and operated strictly by Police officers). it is fun and a little scarey to stand in a lane and put 100-150 rounds into to some paper targets. it is a sport to me. ofcourse bad people will do bad things with guns (they would, as is pointed out, do bad things with out them) and unfortunately horrible accidents will happen because lazy people or careless people or people uneducated about the dangers or some dumbass will get drunk and think it's right funny to go pull out his gun and shoot a few rounds off. how do you really stop itthe gun violence? make them illegal? can that possibly happen? can the government really put enough power together to change that part of the Constitution? and then if they do make guns outlawed, then what? everyone has to show up and turn in their weapons? will that really happen? if they outlaww pistol ownership I would have to turn in mine because they are legally registered but Joe Crackhead down the street on the other side of the tracks is he going to go turn in his handgun? interesting little thing I have read
(A) The number of physicians in the U.S. is 700,000.
(B) Accidental deaths caused by Physicians per year are 120,000.
(C) Accidental deaths per physician is 0.171.
(Statistics courtesy of U.S. Dept. of Health Human Services)
Guns
(A) The number of gun owners in the U.S. is 80,000,000.
Yes, that is 80 million.
(B) The number of accidental gun deaths per year, all age groups, is 1,500.
(C) The number of accidental deaths per gun owner is 0.000188.
Statistically, doctors are approximately 9,000 times more dangerous than gun owners.
Remember, "Guns don't kill people, doctors do"
Drugs are more of a problem than guns are but it seems guns get a lot more attention.
An E-mail I Received
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This_name_sucks
- Posts: 539
- Joined: Fri Mar 21, 2003 10:55 am
- Location: UK, Essex, Southend
PJ makes a point. People who go to a doctor are ill anyway, so doctors are handicapped when it comes to accidentally killing someone. Also I'd like to think that all deaths by doctors are accidental rather than deliberate.
Could someone post up what part of The Constitution allows guns, cause I'm not exactly "in the know" when it comes to The Constitution.
Could someone post up what part of The Constitution allows guns, cause I'm not exactly "in the know" when it comes to The Constitution.
Linking my "Weaker shotty better than a revolver" with percieved "cops today use old revolvers" is just confounding.
You were talking guns in general after me talking about shotguns for defense, and tried to relate what you were thinking about to what I was talking about. That's not paying attention.
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Bullets malleating or breaking once entering the body have nothing to do with the nervous system. If a bullet hits something vital (there's a lot of that vital stuff in there), you're going to have problems very quickly.
Bullets may hit the circulatory system, shredding veins and arteries, unless treated immediately they will die from blood clotting, low pressure and blood loss. Bullets may hit the digestive system, releasing toxins and acids into the rest of the body, causing difficult to repair damage. Respiratory system, lung damage, breathing problem, not actually all that bad if treated fast and proper. Nervous system where it would actually have effect, brain or spine, usually instant death or paralysis below that point. Hitting muscles don't make nerves that control the muscles shut down, it just damages muscle and flesh, possibly at a location that limits movement. Bullets are rare to hit a location where sensory output would actually be lost to a limb.
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A guy gets shot, he's gonna be pumping adrenaline hella fast. A guy on PCP or any other physiologically altering chemical... will realize he's hit by buckshot but will probably not even notice a .22 round or three for a while.
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Unless you have strong granite or steel walls, you don't need to worry about pellets from birdshot (avg 1250fps) ricocheting within a twenty yard range. And if you have a house with a space anywhere near the size of twenty yards in width/length, I want to live with you.
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No gunman bats a thousand: a home defense gun is a deterrent, not a murder weapon. Using warning shots, "I've got a gun!", and scoring non-vital shots that will hinder the target are preferred over "Family in danger, kill bad guy!". If you're aiming to kill right off, you have to rethink your defense methods, cuz' you have about as much chance of killing a buddy as you do a baddy, weapon of choice irrelevant.
A shotgun is loud and some pumps make a well-heard cocking noise, usually enough to shoo an unarmed assailant; the spread of a shotgun is tiny in the distance of common household sizes, and the eighteen inch barrel allows far better accuracy than a six inch barrel.
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"...person shots a guys family, the guy enraged by loved ones being murdered tries to find the crazy man and shot him, he makes mistakes..."
Hollywood tragedy, enraged guy (mild mannered man) would most likely end up with no leads and cops would put him away for obstructing justice or interfering with police investigation, slowing them down. Cops would do their thing afterwards but have been hindered by the time lost.
Even if enraged guy got somewhere, he'd be out of his element and things would not escalate because not everybody is a passionate vigilantie. Very few are.
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"Accidental deaths"
It sucks, but the fault is all in the user's misuse of the weapon. Should have used more discretion. Hide it properly from the babies, keep in touch with the residents, proper police training of assessing the situation and waiting for the perp to actually attack before acting with force, something else unmentioned.
Accidental deaths are a severe minority with intentional deaths together. A scale of one to five thousand each year. Guys with guns who know what they're doing with them are safe and have likely deterred all threats and left his relatives unharmed. These few accidents by those who are incompetent are unavoidable due to the nature of those who do not fully understand the concept of a gun for defense.
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"If we replaced guns with knives"?
Kills would be the same, attacks would increase.
Stabbing and bludgeoning attacks outweight firearm attacks by about four to one.
Blade deaths are about 60% the volume of gun deaths (mostly because bullet wounds are more difficult to treat than knife wounds). Knife attacks are usually not fatal since the victim is technically safe beyond arm's length and most attacks are in unfocused emotion or the handler of the weapon sucks ass.
A sharpened stick, makeshift knife, a shank, is easy as hell to home-make, and knives are everywhere. Unless the weapon is left behind (rare in knife attacks... always in gun attacks), a vital piece of evidence against offenders is gone. The ruthless will take more risks when they have much less chance of being caught or countered.
Close combat is what it's ALL about; everybody has fists, and everybody has sharp pointy things. Crazy and pissed off guys want to get in your face before they whip out a weapon; sensible guys are usually in one another's face before they get pissed off. Public disturbances aren't usually people yelling at each other from afar (usual situation of girls going too far in a one night stand and the guy is in her yard proclaiming his love), its fistfights turning into brawls in the street.
Without the firearms to show an imbalance in a feud and result in the confrontation to break off, guys who have sharpened popsicle sticks will be a lot more daring and a lot more fights will break out.
Drive-by knifings? Highly possible. In fact, it happens, I've seen it. Guy rolls up in his beater, calls out to some dude, dude walks up, says "wa'sup", and the driver takes a few jabs at the guy through the window with a kitchen knife before driving away.
Someone speeds by and flings a glass bottle out of his window, smashing it on some guy's head. Or the ever-classic "hit and run" with the car itself as your tool of hurt. You don't need a projectile launching device to hit someone from the safety of your getaway vehicle.
You also don't need a gun to hit someone in their own vehicle. Crazy black guy on videotape screams that he don't take crap from anybody along a busy intersection. He stomps up to a "soccer mom" van occupied by a defenseless woman and her kids, and begins wailing on the car doors and windows with a baseball bat. Just after breaking one of the windows where the kids are, the car ahead moves and the lady speeds off. Black guy: walks the fuck away.
Violence up, deaths... just about the same.
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A whole report on the Second Amendment, PJ? Did you show the teacher up or did he/she also know the meaning of the second in its entirety as a defender of all constitutional rights, how the people are to be armed to form a militia to overthrow a corrupt governing body?
You were talking guns in general after me talking about shotguns for defense, and tried to relate what you were thinking about to what I was talking about. That's not paying attention.
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Bullets malleating or breaking once entering the body have nothing to do with the nervous system. If a bullet hits something vital (there's a lot of that vital stuff in there), you're going to have problems very quickly.
Bullets may hit the circulatory system, shredding veins and arteries, unless treated immediately they will die from blood clotting, low pressure and blood loss. Bullets may hit the digestive system, releasing toxins and acids into the rest of the body, causing difficult to repair damage. Respiratory system, lung damage, breathing problem, not actually all that bad if treated fast and proper. Nervous system where it would actually have effect, brain or spine, usually instant death or paralysis below that point. Hitting muscles don't make nerves that control the muscles shut down, it just damages muscle and flesh, possibly at a location that limits movement. Bullets are rare to hit a location where sensory output would actually be lost to a limb.
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A guy gets shot, he's gonna be pumping adrenaline hella fast. A guy on PCP or any other physiologically altering chemical... will realize he's hit by buckshot but will probably not even notice a .22 round or three for a while.
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Unless you have strong granite or steel walls, you don't need to worry about pellets from birdshot (avg 1250fps) ricocheting within a twenty yard range. And if you have a house with a space anywhere near the size of twenty yards in width/length, I want to live with you.
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No gunman bats a thousand: a home defense gun is a deterrent, not a murder weapon. Using warning shots, "I've got a gun!", and scoring non-vital shots that will hinder the target are preferred over "Family in danger, kill bad guy!". If you're aiming to kill right off, you have to rethink your defense methods, cuz' you have about as much chance of killing a buddy as you do a baddy, weapon of choice irrelevant.
A shotgun is loud and some pumps make a well-heard cocking noise, usually enough to shoo an unarmed assailant; the spread of a shotgun is tiny in the distance of common household sizes, and the eighteen inch barrel allows far better accuracy than a six inch barrel.
---
"...person shots a guys family, the guy enraged by loved ones being murdered tries to find the crazy man and shot him, he makes mistakes..."
Hollywood tragedy, enraged guy (mild mannered man) would most likely end up with no leads and cops would put him away for obstructing justice or interfering with police investigation, slowing them down. Cops would do their thing afterwards but have been hindered by the time lost.
Even if enraged guy got somewhere, he'd be out of his element and things would not escalate because not everybody is a passionate vigilantie. Very few are.
---
"Accidental deaths"
It sucks, but the fault is all in the user's misuse of the weapon. Should have used more discretion. Hide it properly from the babies, keep in touch with the residents, proper police training of assessing the situation and waiting for the perp to actually attack before acting with force, something else unmentioned.
Accidental deaths are a severe minority with intentional deaths together. A scale of one to five thousand each year. Guys with guns who know what they're doing with them are safe and have likely deterred all threats and left his relatives unharmed. These few accidents by those who are incompetent are unavoidable due to the nature of those who do not fully understand the concept of a gun for defense.
---
"If we replaced guns with knives"?
Kills would be the same, attacks would increase.
Stabbing and bludgeoning attacks outweight firearm attacks by about four to one.
Blade deaths are about 60% the volume of gun deaths (mostly because bullet wounds are more difficult to treat than knife wounds). Knife attacks are usually not fatal since the victim is technically safe beyond arm's length and most attacks are in unfocused emotion or the handler of the weapon sucks ass.
A sharpened stick, makeshift knife, a shank, is easy as hell to home-make, and knives are everywhere. Unless the weapon is left behind (rare in knife attacks... always in gun attacks), a vital piece of evidence against offenders is gone. The ruthless will take more risks when they have much less chance of being caught or countered.
Close combat is what it's ALL about; everybody has fists, and everybody has sharp pointy things. Crazy and pissed off guys want to get in your face before they whip out a weapon; sensible guys are usually in one another's face before they get pissed off. Public disturbances aren't usually people yelling at each other from afar (usual situation of girls going too far in a one night stand and the guy is in her yard proclaiming his love), its fistfights turning into brawls in the street.
Without the firearms to show an imbalance in a feud and result in the confrontation to break off, guys who have sharpened popsicle sticks will be a lot more daring and a lot more fights will break out.
Drive-by knifings? Highly possible. In fact, it happens, I've seen it. Guy rolls up in his beater, calls out to some dude, dude walks up, says "wa'sup", and the driver takes a few jabs at the guy through the window with a kitchen knife before driving away.
Someone speeds by and flings a glass bottle out of his window, smashing it on some guy's head. Or the ever-classic "hit and run" with the car itself as your tool of hurt. You don't need a projectile launching device to hit someone from the safety of your getaway vehicle.
You also don't need a gun to hit someone in their own vehicle. Crazy black guy on videotape screams that he don't take crap from anybody along a busy intersection. He stomps up to a "soccer mom" van occupied by a defenseless woman and her kids, and begins wailing on the car doors and windows with a baseball bat. Just after breaking one of the windows where the kids are, the car ahead moves and the lady speeds off. Black guy: walks the fuck away.
Violence up, deaths... just about the same.
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A whole report on the Second Amendment, PJ? Did you show the teacher up or did he/she also know the meaning of the second in its entirety as a defender of all constitutional rights, how the people are to be armed to form a militia to overthrow a corrupt governing body?
To own a firearm for home defense and to use as a deterant is a waste. I don't know about where you live, but here in CT, it's ileagal to discharge a firearm within 500ft of a residential building. So fire warning shot, bad guy runs, cops come and theres no bad guy. Hmmmmm cops say. You need to come down to station. Hopefuly you can convince them that you always leave the front door unlocked and thats how the bad guy got in. Either way you are screwed and are facing atleast a fine.
To wound is also bullshit. Bad guy opens your always unlocked front door, falls on your childs rollerskate on the middle of the floor and braks his leg. Well he has a lawsuit. And yes he does. You shoot him and wound him, "....but oficer, he let me in his house to use the phone and then he shot me"! You shoot to kill, bad guy can't say shit. If you shoot bad guy in the back when he is trying to run, this is a bad move, let him run.
This is just how I look at things and how other responsible gun owners I know look at things. People like myself and my friends are sick and tired of having our rights violated by criminals. Some asshole who has no right owning a gun kills someone and my rights as a law abiding citizen are thrown out the goddam window.
Me, personaly, in my 12gauge wich is my home security is loaded with 00 buck shot so the job is done right the 1st time.
You can call or consider me crazy or what ever the hell else you want, but I'll tell you this, there are fuckers out there that need to wiped from society and untill this happens (and we know it never will) I will hold to my opinions that I stated above. Before you think about warning shots and wounding, you better check with your local law enforcement aggency and find out what your opptions are as a law abiding citizen under these situatuins.
When guns become outlawed, I'll become an outlaw.
To wound is also bullshit. Bad guy opens your always unlocked front door, falls on your childs rollerskate on the middle of the floor and braks his leg. Well he has a lawsuit. And yes he does. You shoot him and wound him, "....but oficer, he let me in his house to use the phone and then he shot me"! You shoot to kill, bad guy can't say shit. If you shoot bad guy in the back when he is trying to run, this is a bad move, let him run.
This is just how I look at things and how other responsible gun owners I know look at things. People like myself and my friends are sick and tired of having our rights violated by criminals. Some asshole who has no right owning a gun kills someone and my rights as a law abiding citizen are thrown out the goddam window.
Me, personaly, in my 12gauge wich is my home security is loaded with 00 buck shot so the job is done right the 1st time.
You can call or consider me crazy or what ever the hell else you want, but I'll tell you this, there are fuckers out there that need to wiped from society and untill this happens (and we know it never will) I will hold to my opinions that I stated above. Before you think about warning shots and wounding, you better check with your local law enforcement aggency and find out what your opptions are as a law abiding citizen under these situatuins.
When guns become outlawed, I'll become an outlaw.
No such residential range discharge law in PA. I'm going to spook the guy unless he attacks me. Then I'll stop him dead.
Those "what if" circumstances are silly. If I ever had a wounded criminal escape, go to the cops and the courts to try to rip money off of me after I put a hole in his ass for doing bad, we'd be laughing his ass out the door. The case will be done the moment I show them my suvelience tape from the hidden camera.
The "non-vital shot" was bad wording. I meant to take his legs out so he can't get away, and call the cops to get rid of him. While I entertain the idea of wasting the guy and saving the city a few thousand dollars for the prison facilities, I prefer not kill a guy unless I've got a better reason than his taking my stuff.
I'd rather scare off a guy than hurt a guy, but I'd rather kill a criminal who pushed me to even firing my gun than let him limp off. If he's got a weapon, and that weapon is a knife, I'm not gonna kill him unless he lunges at me with it. If that weapon is a gun, that's an immediate shot to the chest. I'm not going to just turn a corner and blast some SOB without even knowing what's going on outside of "he don't belong here".
Oh, and you are what ever the hell else you want.
Those "what if" circumstances are silly. If I ever had a wounded criminal escape, go to the cops and the courts to try to rip money off of me after I put a hole in his ass for doing bad, we'd be laughing his ass out the door. The case will be done the moment I show them my suvelience tape from the hidden camera.
The "non-vital shot" was bad wording. I meant to take his legs out so he can't get away, and call the cops to get rid of him. While I entertain the idea of wasting the guy and saving the city a few thousand dollars for the prison facilities, I prefer not kill a guy unless I've got a better reason than his taking my stuff.
I'd rather scare off a guy than hurt a guy, but I'd rather kill a criminal who pushed me to even firing my gun than let him limp off. If he's got a weapon, and that weapon is a knife, I'm not gonna kill him unless he lunges at me with it. If that weapon is a gun, that's an immediate shot to the chest. I'm not going to just turn a corner and blast some SOB without even knowing what's going on outside of "he don't belong here".
Oh, and you are what ever the hell else you want.
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EightyFour
- Posts: 100
- Joined: Sat Jul 16, 2005 12:34 am
- Location: California
Your right Den, I was not paying attention to your whole post. It was a little long for the state I was in, I normaly do this at work and I only got an hour to read and post, plus wasen't to awake that night.
Not going into the nervous system thing anymore, I have failed to explain it successfully so I well discontinue. If I can find some info on that when I get some time I well do that, it would prob be more helpful than just taking my word for it.
Unfortuitly making guns illigal dose not help, I understand the thought, but it dosen't work, I wish it did. I would give up all 80 firearms I had if I really believed that it would make this world a safer place, but it dosen't so I won't.
"Totally in agreement, except for the fear bit. People got over September 11th cause it didn't continue to happen over and over. I bet if someone flew a plane into an important landmark now (full of people), you still shit your pants as bad as before. That's cause we care for others and cause we're shocked by what happens.
Unfortunately people get cynical and when it happens over and over again, it becomes the normal and people think it's ok."
In reply to this made by This_name_sucks, you have a point, but I still think that people would come to accept guns as a normal thing in life, however I have made a small change in my opinion, I should have added, anyone over 30 years of age. I know age dosen't justify machurity but it sure as hell lowers the numbers.
"Frankly if I was in control of the law, I'd want to kill every person who ever commited murder. But I wouldn't be able to do it cause I value human life above all other things.
I agree that guns in their own right, aren't bad things. It's only when they're used to do bad things that they appear bad. It's only the user that can make it do bad things. But it's like anything really. If you take it away all together, then people don't have the option of doing bad things with it. "
Also another qoute
Valueing human life is important, but you have to understand that some people are not human. I look at it this way, when your have a wolf, and you lock it in a cage and everytime it gets out it kills a few people, you catch it and throw it back in the cage. You waste your money on feeding it, taking care of it's health needs, and cleaning up after it, just to have it get out again and kill another person.
This is why we don't keep wild animals as pets. Now you have to understand that a wild animal is kinder than a lot of the bad people we have out there. I wish I could pass on to you the evil I have seen so you could understand, but I know this well only come from personal experance.
As to the second paragraph, the problem is you cannot take all guns away, guns have been invented, the technology is out, people know how to make them, the materials are there, everytime you take a weapon away another one is being crafted in it's place. It would be as difficult as removing the information and invention of the wheel.
Wish I could make this already extremely long post longer, but I only have so much time, and lunch is up, talk to ya tomorrow.
Not going into the nervous system thing anymore, I have failed to explain it successfully so I well discontinue. If I can find some info on that when I get some time I well do that, it would prob be more helpful than just taking my word for it.
Unfortuitly making guns illigal dose not help, I understand the thought, but it dosen't work, I wish it did. I would give up all 80 firearms I had if I really believed that it would make this world a safer place, but it dosen't so I won't.
"Totally in agreement, except for the fear bit. People got over September 11th cause it didn't continue to happen over and over. I bet if someone flew a plane into an important landmark now (full of people), you still shit your pants as bad as before. That's cause we care for others and cause we're shocked by what happens.
Unfortunately people get cynical and when it happens over and over again, it becomes the normal and people think it's ok."
In reply to this made by This_name_sucks, you have a point, but I still think that people would come to accept guns as a normal thing in life, however I have made a small change in my opinion, I should have added, anyone over 30 years of age. I know age dosen't justify machurity but it sure as hell lowers the numbers.
"Frankly if I was in control of the law, I'd want to kill every person who ever commited murder. But I wouldn't be able to do it cause I value human life above all other things.
I agree that guns in their own right, aren't bad things. It's only when they're used to do bad things that they appear bad. It's only the user that can make it do bad things. But it's like anything really. If you take it away all together, then people don't have the option of doing bad things with it. "
Also another qoute
Valueing human life is important, but you have to understand that some people are not human. I look at it this way, when your have a wolf, and you lock it in a cage and everytime it gets out it kills a few people, you catch it and throw it back in the cage. You waste your money on feeding it, taking care of it's health needs, and cleaning up after it, just to have it get out again and kill another person.
This is why we don't keep wild animals as pets. Now you have to understand that a wild animal is kinder than a lot of the bad people we have out there. I wish I could pass on to you the evil I have seen so you could understand, but I know this well only come from personal experance.
As to the second paragraph, the problem is you cannot take all guns away, guns have been invented, the technology is out, people know how to make them, the materials are there, everytime you take a weapon away another one is being crafted in it's place. It would be as difficult as removing the information and invention of the wheel.
Wish I could make this already extremely long post longer, but I only have so much time, and lunch is up, talk to ya tomorrow.
Açieeed! style by