An E-mail I Received
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DaLittleCow
- Posts: 5
- Joined: Fri May 06, 2005 2:53 pm
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EightyFour
- Posts: 100
- Joined: Sat Jul 16, 2005 12:34 am
- Location: California
Well Den, i must have gotten lost in your post somewhare, some of your points in the eirler post I conceviec as misleading. The point about .38 specials for example I thought you were specking moderen day.
I'm gonna write most of this off as communication error.
As to the reference of lighter loads, you are correct that a lighter load can be used. But I thought you were speaking to the point that the loads would become less deadly than they are.
As to my point on the nervious system, most bullets are designed to mushroom before impact, minus your armor pirceing bullets and your round noses. I well admit that the purpose of most wad-cutters is to grab the flesh that it can and move it to a different location in the body.
If you see a guy hiped up on something like adrinaline or PCP than you well notice a lot of the times they are shot they don't even notice untell they start comeing down from there high. Most bullets that enter the body don't kill you, what I mean by this is that the placement of the bullet may interfer with a vital function of the body but normaly the body can over come most of this damage. If you see a buck bolt after you put 2 shots into him they are bound to run for miles before they die, you normaly have to fallow the blood trail to get your bag of meat.
I'm just saying a normal person that is not hyped up on these things is not going to die right away like the above situations. But I garentee that you feel something hot slice into you the most likely thing that well happen is the body well go right into shock.
Now the human body being as soft as it is I believe takes 200fps to rip though bone, most low vol. loads are around 800fps, lowest I think would be 600fps.
But I think this is where some of that mis communication is coming through. I'm specking mostly of pistols/rifles, and your seem to be talking shotguns. And your talking home defence, where as I'm speaking in general. I don't personaly like the idea of useing a shotgun for home defence but I live with others, I don't like the risk that I could hit an inocent. I get where your going with the birdshot and it's a good idea, but I still don't trust that I'm going to be 100% on target every time, not to speak of shotgun ricochea (ric-o-sh-a). However you spell that.
As for the UK, the only instantes that you are aloud to own one of the 2 firearms is to one be in a hunting club, or two have a friend with a certain amount of property that give you the ok to hunt on his land. I don't know any other restrictions other than sence. But I'll let you know that Bobby's are starting to carry because of the increseing thret of violent crime with illigel firearms, of corse they carry them under there jacket as to not alert the publi to the fact that they a carrying.
Well lunch is over, back to work.
I'm gonna write most of this off as communication error.
As to the reference of lighter loads, you are correct that a lighter load can be used. But I thought you were speaking to the point that the loads would become less deadly than they are.
As to my point on the nervious system, most bullets are designed to mushroom before impact, minus your armor pirceing bullets and your round noses. I well admit that the purpose of most wad-cutters is to grab the flesh that it can and move it to a different location in the body.
If you see a guy hiped up on something like adrinaline or PCP than you well notice a lot of the times they are shot they don't even notice untell they start comeing down from there high. Most bullets that enter the body don't kill you, what I mean by this is that the placement of the bullet may interfer with a vital function of the body but normaly the body can over come most of this damage. If you see a buck bolt after you put 2 shots into him they are bound to run for miles before they die, you normaly have to fallow the blood trail to get your bag of meat.
I'm just saying a normal person that is not hyped up on these things is not going to die right away like the above situations. But I garentee that you feel something hot slice into you the most likely thing that well happen is the body well go right into shock.
Now the human body being as soft as it is I believe takes 200fps to rip though bone, most low vol. loads are around 800fps, lowest I think would be 600fps.
But I think this is where some of that mis communication is coming through. I'm specking mostly of pistols/rifles, and your seem to be talking shotguns. And your talking home defence, where as I'm speaking in general. I don't personaly like the idea of useing a shotgun for home defence but I live with others, I don't like the risk that I could hit an inocent. I get where your going with the birdshot and it's a good idea, but I still don't trust that I'm going to be 100% on target every time, not to speak of shotgun ricochea (ric-o-sh-a). However you spell that.
As for the UK, the only instantes that you are aloud to own one of the 2 firearms is to one be in a hunting club, or two have a friend with a certain amount of property that give you the ok to hunt on his land. I don't know any other restrictions other than sence. But I'll let you know that Bobby's are starting to carry because of the increseing thret of violent crime with illigel firearms, of corse they carry them under there jacket as to not alert the publi to the fact that they a carrying.
Well lunch is over, back to work.
Well, when I went for my pistol permit I as told that I pull my gun, I better be willing to use it(wich I am), and if I shoot, I shoot to kill cause a dead man can't lie. Now, these statements were made in reference to someone breaking into my house and me protecting my family. If I shoot him in the leg and wound him, when the cops come, he says I let him in my house and DrDeath goes to jail.
lol well said and very true, the world is stupid and mad like that. We had a similar actual case in the UK, two guys broke into a mans house and he pulled a shotgun out, killed on of them and the spread hit the other guy in the leg. He got jailed for manslaughter (i dont know why not murder but what the hey), and sued by the injured guy for loss of earnings...... now how is that for a screwed system?
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EightyFour
- Posts: 100
- Joined: Sat Jul 16, 2005 12:34 am
- Location: California
Honestly I think makeing them avaliable to all would be a good idea, almost to the point we should issue them to all. Look at it this way 80 to 90 % of the people in out socity are good people to the point that they don't have a plan running around in there head how there going to get there next victim.
I feel that this wouldn't solve all crime but would lower the amount of stupied people walking around. And give everyone a more polite desposition towards there fellow man.
I figure it mostly this way, you walk around and you know everyone is crazy but yourself and maybe even a few close friends and family. Now arm every one of those crazy people with a conceled weapon, I bet you well think twice about cutting that guy off, give someone the finger, or even thinking about mugging someone. Now I think we would have to loosen up a little as far as getting used to the idea that yep, you got one and so dose he.
I main idea behind this concept is that you have instant cops every where you go. And with as many people carrying, things like the safeist way the handle it, most effective, and wrong times to take shots well become commen conversation.
But I'm also a little crazy and go with the service in the military or peace corp before you are granted voteing rights and citcenship to everyone born in America.
I feel that this wouldn't solve all crime but would lower the amount of stupied people walking around. And give everyone a more polite desposition towards there fellow man.
I figure it mostly this way, you walk around and you know everyone is crazy but yourself and maybe even a few close friends and family. Now arm every one of those crazy people with a conceled weapon, I bet you well think twice about cutting that guy off, give someone the finger, or even thinking about mugging someone. Now I think we would have to loosen up a little as far as getting used to the idea that yep, you got one and so dose he.
I main idea behind this concept is that you have instant cops every where you go. And with as many people carrying, things like the safeist way the handle it, most effective, and wrong times to take shots well become commen conversation.
But I'm also a little crazy and go with the service in the military or peace corp before you are granted voteing rights and citcenship to everyone born in America.
I see your point, but what happens if one crazy person shots a guys family, the guy enraged by loved ones being murdered tries to find the crazy man and shot him, he makes mistakes in tracking him and shots other people. The familys of the other people shot for no good reason become enraged and start trying to track down his killer and.......
You see where this is going?
You see where this is going?
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This_name_sucks
- Posts: 539
- Joined: Fri Mar 21, 2003 10:55 am
- Location: UK, Essex, Southend
Mass lemming suicide?
Anyway, as far as I can see, you're saying that living in a society of fear is better than living in a society of ignorance. You know every other person has a gun and you wouldn't dare get on their bad side for risk of getting blown away.
I believe George Orwell wrote a famous novel in 1948, called 1984. You all know Big Brother and that crap. You couldn't even sneeze without being accused by someone of being against the state. That's not courtesy, that's just not getting "removed" from society.
I think Nazi Germany too lived under constant fear...so too in Soviet Russia. Neither of the two would allow propaganda or anything else against their leaders.
I agree I'm speaking on a much larger scale, but still, it's not that you're safe because guns make it safe. It's because you're in a stale mate, much like the current nuclear position worldwide. Who's fucking fault was that? And unfortunately you just have to look at the gun situation to realise that we're not safe with nuclear weapons either. Eventually some moron gets his hand on the trigger and pulls it on someone's arse (a big red button isn't that different, although I accept that aiming a nuke at someone's arse has it's difficulties).
Smart people will get killed by the stupid, until there are so few smart people left, that the stupid people wipe pretty much everyone out, except the smart guys who prepared. Natural selection, ain't it wonderful?
But back to the subject at hand. Pink's recount of the guy who got done for manslaughter is something I remember well. I couldn't believe it when I heard that. It almost contended american lawsuits.
I suppose we have to accept that weapons will always be a part of society cause hunting is part of who we are. We all are capable of violence. But giving everyone a gun is like sticking a monkey in a fire works factory with a box of matches. Inevitably the monkey is gonna blow the shit out of everything (unless the matches get soggy, or the monkey either suffocates or starves...lets just say it's an immortal monkey with super dry matches). The point I'm trying to make is that you can't give everyone a weapon, cause it just makes "accidents", like Pink was suggesting, happen all that more often.
Anyway, as far as I can see, you're saying that living in a society of fear is better than living in a society of ignorance. You know every other person has a gun and you wouldn't dare get on their bad side for risk of getting blown away.
I believe George Orwell wrote a famous novel in 1948, called 1984. You all know Big Brother and that crap. You couldn't even sneeze without being accused by someone of being against the state. That's not courtesy, that's just not getting "removed" from society.
I think Nazi Germany too lived under constant fear...so too in Soviet Russia. Neither of the two would allow propaganda or anything else against their leaders.
I agree I'm speaking on a much larger scale, but still, it's not that you're safe because guns make it safe. It's because you're in a stale mate, much like the current nuclear position worldwide. Who's fucking fault was that? And unfortunately you just have to look at the gun situation to realise that we're not safe with nuclear weapons either. Eventually some moron gets his hand on the trigger and pulls it on someone's arse (a big red button isn't that different, although I accept that aiming a nuke at someone's arse has it's difficulties).
Smart people will get killed by the stupid, until there are so few smart people left, that the stupid people wipe pretty much everyone out, except the smart guys who prepared. Natural selection, ain't it wonderful?
But back to the subject at hand. Pink's recount of the guy who got done for manslaughter is something I remember well. I couldn't believe it when I heard that. It almost contended american lawsuits.
I suppose we have to accept that weapons will always be a part of society cause hunting is part of who we are. We all are capable of violence. But giving everyone a gun is like sticking a monkey in a fire works factory with a box of matches. Inevitably the monkey is gonna blow the shit out of everything (unless the matches get soggy, or the monkey either suffocates or starves...lets just say it's an immortal monkey with super dry matches). The point I'm trying to make is that you can't give everyone a weapon, cause it just makes "accidents", like Pink was suggesting, happen all that more often.
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Archangelus
- Posts: 4286
- Joined: Mon Jun 24, 2002 9:01 pm
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I'm just gonna take a twist on this.....
What about the issue of accidental killings from:
a) curious kids and irresponsible parents
b) anxious people and unfortunate circumstances (i.e. kid comes home late, parents aren't expecting it, mistaken for a robber.....)
c) police approach a suspicious person and jump to the wrong conclusion
d) something else that I can't think of.....
-Arch
What about the issue of accidental killings from:
a) curious kids and irresponsible parents
b) anxious people and unfortunate circumstances (i.e. kid comes home late, parents aren't expecting it, mistaken for a robber.....)
c) police approach a suspicious person and jump to the wrong conclusion
d) something else that I can't think of.....
-Arch
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EightyFour
- Posts: 100
- Joined: Sat Jul 16, 2005 12:34 am
- Location: California
Well as to the subject of living in fear, I understand your thought's on this, at first everyone would be living in fear, even if you introduse slow into the general population.
But I have found thru out my life time that people get used to the situations at they are in. Fear can only last so long before the body well not produce it any longer and people come up with any excuse to not let themselves live in fear any longer.
Look at the Sep 11th attacks, when people were first intrduced to this type of scare they were terrified, and there terror turned to anger, and eventualy the anger fades. The only thing that holds something together after anger fades is resolve. Makeing a goal and aheieveing that goal before you discontinue.
I understand what you are thinking with the subject of enraged husband going after his wife and kid's murder. The fact of the matter is that if a murder is identified, most people are going to shot the murderer. And I'm not saying that we should just issue everyone a wweapon and say be on your way now. It would be nice if some training was done in school, like in first grade and up or something.
But a lot of people fail to undrstand that a gun like a hammer is a tool. It has a function, and just like the hammer if used improperly, accident's can happen.
And I understand there are many inresponsiable people out there, guesss what, those inresponsiable people that use there guns in that fashion well not be around long.
However I believe it well never happen, because even if we did get the plan off the ground, it would take the deaths of many people to get us there. Both good and bad. I think the problem would come into that people would not be able to tolerate the deaths of anyone, even if the change made the country a safer place.
Not many people in America are even willing to sacrifice one person for the good of the whole. I think it comes down to our greedy nature or the fact that people would like to contribute there 2 cent's even if they don't have an opinion.
Plus I think people just hate change, even if it's for the better people hate it untell it is proven to be better.
But mostly I'm trying to combat the opinion that guns are bad and the people that have them are bad, and everything about guns is bad. People look at a kichen knife and think cutting bread or something, people look at a gun and see power, those that have them are to be feared. well this may be some what true, but I would also tell you that unless you have something a silence the gun, your going to get a whole lot more killing done with that kitchen knife.
I guess the entire point that I am trying to get to is I hate it when an AK-47 gets baned because everyone thinks that, why should anyone have that, it's no good for hunting, it's made for wars, so lets take it away so reg. people can't have it. Give me a .223 single shot bolt action and I bet that I could do a hell of a lot more damage with that than an AK-47. Guns put out bullets, bullets go into people, don't feed my some BS about how this one is worse than that one.
But I have found thru out my life time that people get used to the situations at they are in. Fear can only last so long before the body well not produce it any longer and people come up with any excuse to not let themselves live in fear any longer.
Look at the Sep 11th attacks, when people were first intrduced to this type of scare they were terrified, and there terror turned to anger, and eventualy the anger fades. The only thing that holds something together after anger fades is resolve. Makeing a goal and aheieveing that goal before you discontinue.
I understand what you are thinking with the subject of enraged husband going after his wife and kid's murder. The fact of the matter is that if a murder is identified, most people are going to shot the murderer. And I'm not saying that we should just issue everyone a wweapon and say be on your way now. It would be nice if some training was done in school, like in first grade and up or something.
But a lot of people fail to undrstand that a gun like a hammer is a tool. It has a function, and just like the hammer if used improperly, accident's can happen.
And I understand there are many inresponsiable people out there, guesss what, those inresponsiable people that use there guns in that fashion well not be around long.
However I believe it well never happen, because even if we did get the plan off the ground, it would take the deaths of many people to get us there. Both good and bad. I think the problem would come into that people would not be able to tolerate the deaths of anyone, even if the change made the country a safer place.
Not many people in America are even willing to sacrifice one person for the good of the whole. I think it comes down to our greedy nature or the fact that people would like to contribute there 2 cent's even if they don't have an opinion.
Plus I think people just hate change, even if it's for the better people hate it untell it is proven to be better.
But mostly I'm trying to combat the opinion that guns are bad and the people that have them are bad, and everything about guns is bad. People look at a kichen knife and think cutting bread or something, people look at a gun and see power, those that have them are to be feared. well this may be some what true, but I would also tell you that unless you have something a silence the gun, your going to get a whole lot more killing done with that kitchen knife.
I guess the entire point that I am trying to get to is I hate it when an AK-47 gets baned because everyone thinks that, why should anyone have that, it's no good for hunting, it's made for wars, so lets take it away so reg. people can't have it. Give me a .223 single shot bolt action and I bet that I could do a hell of a lot more damage with that than an AK-47. Guns put out bullets, bullets go into people, don't feed my some BS about how this one is worse than that one.
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This_name_sucks
- Posts: 539
- Joined: Fri Mar 21, 2003 10:55 am
- Location: UK, Essex, Southend
Totally in agreement, except for the fear bit. People got over September 11th cause it didn't continue to happen over and over. I bet if someone flew a plane into an important landmark now (full of people), you still shit your pants as bad as before. That's cause we care for others and cause we're shocked by what happens.
Unfortunately people get cynical and when it happens over and over again, it becomes the normal and people think it's ok. We don't allow weapons here, with the exceptions already mentioned. To us, it's tragic when someone gets shot, cause it's only done by people who are bad and have acquired illegal firearms. To you guys, shootings happen all the time, and you've come to accept it as a way of life. Just a difference in society I guess. I'm not in anyway saying that you don't see shootings as a bad thing.
Frankly if I was in control of the law, I'd want to kill every person who ever commited murder. But I wouldn't be able to do it cause I value human life above all other things.
I agree that guns in their own right, aren't bad things. It's only when they're used to do bad things that they appear bad. It's only the user that can make it do bad things. But it's like anything really. If you take it away all together, then people don't have the option of doing bad things with it.
In my opinion, there's too many people in the world and destroying ourselves is an inevitable outcome. There's too many underfed, undereducated and irresponsible people in the world for us to stop one of them blowing the shit out of everyone. Violence will always be in society and that's why I accept that guns are a part of our societies because someone will always want that little bit more power; "people look at a gun and see power" - EightyFour.
I simply disagree with everyone being allowed to attain that power because like you also said, it's a tool, and tools need to be used responsibly. And some punkass 14 year old, who is trying to boost his street cred in da' hood with his gangsta friends, isn't going to give a crap about using it responsibly.
Also senile old people, like Midnight, aren't safe with guns either
Unfortunately people get cynical and when it happens over and over again, it becomes the normal and people think it's ok. We don't allow weapons here, with the exceptions already mentioned. To us, it's tragic when someone gets shot, cause it's only done by people who are bad and have acquired illegal firearms. To you guys, shootings happen all the time, and you've come to accept it as a way of life. Just a difference in society I guess. I'm not in anyway saying that you don't see shootings as a bad thing.
Frankly if I was in control of the law, I'd want to kill every person who ever commited murder. But I wouldn't be able to do it cause I value human life above all other things.
I agree that guns in their own right, aren't bad things. It's only when they're used to do bad things that they appear bad. It's only the user that can make it do bad things. But it's like anything really. If you take it away all together, then people don't have the option of doing bad things with it.
In my opinion, there's too many people in the world and destroying ourselves is an inevitable outcome. There's too many underfed, undereducated and irresponsible people in the world for us to stop one of them blowing the shit out of everyone. Violence will always be in society and that's why I accept that guns are a part of our societies because someone will always want that little bit more power; "people look at a gun and see power" - EightyFour.
I simply disagree with everyone being allowed to attain that power because like you also said, it's a tool, and tools need to be used responsibly. And some punkass 14 year old, who is trying to boost his street cred in da' hood with his gangsta friends, isn't going to give a crap about using it responsibly.
Also senile old people, like Midnight, aren't safe with guns either
This is a true story.
A few years ago, in Waterbury CT, a 19yr old who just got out of the Marines lures a 13yr old boy into his back yard by telling him hey were going to hunt for snakes. Hours later, his parent call police and tell them her 13yr old son is missing. Hours after that they find him blungeoned to death with a sledge hammer in the back yard of the Marines house.
While I know this is only 1 story, and crimes comitted with guns is far greater than this 1 story, but the point I'm trying to make is that it is not the GUNS, its the god dam people. No matter what you do, you will never be able to take them all away. IF you take away guns, you may ass well take away kitchen knives, cause once the guns are gone thats what will be used. Then you can take them away and then pitch forks will be used. Once those are gone, people will start sharpening sticks to be used as spears. What you need to do is eliminte all the sick fucks of the world not there weapons of choice.
A few years ago, in Waterbury CT, a 19yr old who just got out of the Marines lures a 13yr old boy into his back yard by telling him hey were going to hunt for snakes. Hours later, his parent call police and tell them her 13yr old son is missing. Hours after that they find him blungeoned to death with a sledge hammer in the back yard of the Marines house.
While I know this is only 1 story, and crimes comitted with guns is far greater than this 1 story, but the point I'm trying to make is that it is not the GUNS, its the god dam people. No matter what you do, you will never be able to take them all away. IF you take away guns, you may ass well take away kitchen knives, cause once the guns are gone thats what will be used. Then you can take them away and then pitch forks will be used. Once those are gone, people will start sharpening sticks to be used as spears. What you need to do is eliminte all the sick fucks of the world not there weapons of choice.
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Archangelus
- Posts: 4286
- Joined: Mon Jun 24, 2002 9:01 pm
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Oh, I don't disagree one bit, Death. The people are ultimately responsible for their actions. To steal from 84's post, guns are tools. The issue with tools are, the more effective the tool, the more "work" can get done. Tools allow people that are unskilled to do the "work" (while maybe shottily) and the people that are skilled to do the work more efficiently. Guns do that.
Let's play a hypothetical game (hypothetical cause it won't ever happen):
If we went into Compton and replaced all the guns with knives (switchblades, hunting knives, hell - let's even give them some machetes), would we stop all the murders? Nope.
Would the numbers go down though? You better believe it. No drive by knifings happen. People are too scared when they have to connect themselves to the crime. Close combat isn't something many people are really prepared to do.
I'd type more, but that's the crux of my main point right there. I'm honestly not against people having guns. I just hate the fact that they are readily available to people who want them for "bad" things.
-Arch
Let's play a hypothetical game (hypothetical cause it won't ever happen):
If we went into Compton and replaced all the guns with knives (switchblades, hunting knives, hell - let's even give them some machetes), would we stop all the murders? Nope.
Would the numbers go down though? You better believe it. No drive by knifings happen. People are too scared when they have to connect themselves to the crime. Close combat isn't something many people are really prepared to do.
I'd type more, but that's the crux of my main point right there. I'm honestly not against people having guns. I just hate the fact that they are readily available to people who want them for "bad" things.
-Arch
Açieeed! style by