the hubble tele

Completely open to any registered user to talk about anything.
User avatar
Tadren
Posts: 31
Joined: Tue May 10, 2005 5:55 pm
Location: Bloomington,Il

in our lifetime

Post by Tadren »

it is possible that a human will set foot on another planet outside of our galaxy in our lifetime.

if you do a search on ion propulsion you may be amazed, and what they are working on.

I'm 52, and I believe it is possible that I will see it happen.
Most of your are "somewhat" younger (shut up you young whippersnappers :) ).

Just putting in my 2000 dollars (inflation you know).

Take care everyone.

Swiftrelease
User avatar
Yazule
Posts: 2404
Joined: Sat Feb 22, 2003 3:44 pm
Location: Behind you
Contact:

RE: Re: RE: Re: RE: Re: RE: the hubble tele

Post by Yazule »

ok lots of things here

badash: talked to a physicist geek here in the office (the "brain" around here) and he said that gravity is much greater than magnetic forces mostly because gravity effects everything and magnetic forces only effect magnetic (mostly ferrous) things

PJ, the nearest solar system is 3 light years away, galaxies are a different and much much much much farther away http://astro.u-strasbg.fr/images_ri/canm-e.html

also time is not a conecept at all, it is the 4th dimention, length width height and time... all the definable dimensions. http://www.jimloy.com/physics/4d.htm

Time: wow, lots there but I will try to tackle my understanding of these topics.

1) the big crunch is dependent on the mass of the big bang, if the mass is great enough then our big band (our universe) will constantly expand, if the mass is just right then it will be steady state (stop growing and stay the same size) and if it is too little then eventually it will contract like you theorize... once you have the concept of the big bang to let your mind munch on and knowing for every action there is an equal and opposite reaction, and the concept of gravity, the big crunch coneptually falls right out. The big shot scientists came up with the ideas that make your realizeation possible, without these concepts which were all quantum leaps in thought the big crunch concept does not fall out so easily.

2) black holes have an event horizon, where the gravity is soooo great that light cannot escape it, and yes the more mass a black hole sucks in the larger in diameter (due to 3d it is a sphere) the event horizon becomes. It is my personal theory (not proven in any way) that when enough black holes fall into one another (which due to the increasing gravity "must" happen in my mind) you get a singularity that is so dense that you get a big bang effect, so I personally think there are big bangs going on all the time and the edge of the expanding universe created by it are like a ripple in a pond... if that makes any sense (we are kind of talking about the same thing with big bangs and black holes) I just hope that a "ripple" of another universe does not wash over us destroying us :)

Light is a photon and has the properties of both a wave and a particle so yes gravity does effect light by bending it as you say, and when the gravitational forces are strong enough sucking it in.

I have not heard of black holes being assumed to be at the center of galaxies, but I learned newtonian mechanics not quantum physics or astral physics.

badash: wow cool dude another cool link.

in the end the whole light/special relativity/time thing comes from einstien... and in the end even his brain was not capable of completing the thought. Because he believed in God and creationism he ASSUMED the univers was steady state (constant) and kept looking for a "fudge factor" to put into his equations to make it all balance out.

very interesting postings guys :)

I highly HIGHLY recomend reading "A Brief History of Time" by Hawkins, amazing book that does a great job of explaining conventional wisdom of current (90's) Astrophysics in very lamens terms.
Image
User avatar
Yazule
Posts: 2404
Joined: Sat Feb 22, 2003 3:44 pm
Location: Behind you
Contact:

RE: Re: RE: Re: RE: Re: RE: the hubble tele

Post by Yazule »

for reference, I am not a scientist, just an engineer, and dont claim to have a full grasp on these concepts and nobody is right or wrong in their arguments (well impossible to prove anyway) when it comes to black holes, the universe and 42 (the meaning of life).

My expertice is in geometry, material mechanics and newtonian mechanics as it applies to foces stress and structural integrity. So all of this astro stuff is only things I weaned from classes I took that really have nothing to do with my current occupation (and I took those classes years ago)....

so no "Yaz is on his high horse" comments!!!!

and swift, I have a thing in my head that says we can go faster than the speed of light, but every physicst in the world would dissagree with me so I am probably wrong. Ion propulshon is amazing but will never allow us to go to another galaxy and come back again in one lifetime, or even in 100 lifetimes (as the nearest galaxy is 1000's of ligh years away).
Image
User avatar
Yazule
Posts: 2404
Joined: Sat Feb 22, 2003 3:44 pm
Location: Behind you
Contact:

RE: Re: RE: Re: RE: Re: RE: the hubble tele

Post by Yazule »

http://science.howstuffworks.com/relativity1.htm

very cool link on basically everything we have been talking about with time and light
Image
XoR
Posts: 1887
Joined: Wed Jul 10, 2002 4:35 am
Location: Minnesota
Contact:

RE:(0x10)

Post by XoR »

Fun stuff.

I'm not so sure 'ol Einy was a creationist ...

"The idea of a personal God is quite alien to me and seems even naive." (As quoted in Jammer M. 1999. Einstein and Religion: Physics and Theology. Princeton: Princeton University Press.).

"The man who is thoroughly convinced of the universal operation of the law of causation cannot for a moment entertain the idea of a being who interferes in the course of events -- provided, of course, that he takes the hypothesis of causality really seriously. He has no use for the religion of fear and equality for social or moral religion." (As quoted in Jammer 1999:80)

"I believe in Spinoza's God who reveals himself in the orderly harmony of what exists...not in a God who concerns himself with the fates and actions of human beings." (As quoted in Clark RW. 1971. Einstein: The Life and Times. New York)

"Evolution itself is evolving" (some dude from S.A.L.T)
User avatar
Yazule
Posts: 2404
Joined: Sat Feb 22, 2003 3:44 pm
Location: Behind you
Contact:

RE: Re: RE: Re: RE: Re: RE: the hubble tele

Post by Yazule »

Time said

So I guess time would slow down towards a black hole, which I think I've heard somewhere before. However, if a particle were to remain proportional with space fabric, then time would remain constant, but the objects would seem larger to an outside spectator, kind of like a magnifying glass.

ok you are close on this one... you go into a black hole and you accelerate due to gravity, to you time seems to go the same speed, but the faster you go, the slower "your time" vs "everyone elses time"... time dialates with speed. I like to think of it as "time bubbles" ... if I am going 5304958340 miles per hour (relative to the earth), I am in a time bubble, and anyone else going the same speed see's time the same as me... time OUTSIDE of the bubble seems to speed up ... as you approach the speed of light time outside your bubble is WIZZING along...

So someone that could go close to the speed of time can travel for a year and hundreds, maybe thousands of years would pass on earth in the one year of space flight... this is time dialation and is a big part of special relativity (look at above link and special relativity section)

here is a cool link showing how it works... http://www.walter-fendt.de/ph11e/timedilation.htm

in the end length and time are only constant to people at the same speed.... at different speeds lengths actually change and time runs at a different speed...

ok I have spent too much time here at work looking up all this stuff lol....
Image
User avatar
Yazule
Posts: 2404
Joined: Sat Feb 22, 2003 3:44 pm
Location: Behind you
Contact:

Re: RE:(0x10)

Post by Yazule »

XoR wrote:Fun stuff.

I'm not so sure 'ol Einy was a creationist ...

"The idea of a personal God is quite alien to me and seems even naive." (As quoted in Jammer M. 1999. Einstein and Religion: Physics and Theology. Princeton: Princeton University Press.).

"The man who is thoroughly convinced of the universal operation of the law of causation cannot for a moment entertain the idea of a being who interferes in the course of events -- provided, of course, that he takes the hypothesis of causality really seriously. He has no use for the religion of fear and equality for social or moral religion." (As quoted in Jammer 1999:80)

"I believe in Spinoza's God who reveals himself in the orderly harmony of what exists...not in a God who concerns himself with the fates and actions of human beings." (As quoted in Clark RW. 1971. Einstein: The Life and Times. New York)

"Evolution itself is evolving" (some dude from S.A.L.T)
these things prove what I said... he believed in god, just not religion or whether god gave a rats arse about the individuals in the universe... "I believe in Spinoza's God who reveals himself in the orderly harmony of what exists" ... that is about as creationistic as it gets... existance is due to god.
Image
User avatar
Yazule
Posts: 2404
Joined: Sat Feb 22, 2003 3:44 pm
Location: Behind you
Contact:

RE: Re: RE:(0x10)

Post by Yazule »

We can gather how this works in Spinoza by examing the details of his metaphysics, as found in Book I of his postumously published Ethics. The fundamental thing to keep in mind when thinking about Spinoza is one simple, striking, and paradoxical proposition: God is the only thing that exists

link: http://www.friesian.com/spinoza.htm

allow me to rephrase then, einstein was not a creationist, he believed in god, and believed god was everything and infinite. Because god is infinite and is the universe then it could not be contracting or expanding therefore must be steady state... hence him trying to find the fudge factors that would make the system steady state :)

better?
Image
User avatar
Undead_Mercenary
Posts: 2914
Joined: Wed Aug 21, 2002 10:01 am
Location: Barrie, Ontario

RE: Re: RE:(0x10)

Post by Undead_Mercenary »

I'm a big noob in all this astrology stuff, so go easy on me...

Ok, so if the nearest solar system is 3 light years away, if I understood correctly, that's 30 years away. Now is that saying that if we had technology that allowed us to travel the speed of light, it would take 3 years to get there, correct?

My brain is telling me that according to this, it would take us 30 years to get to the next solar system (I had solar system in mind when I said galaxy before). Is that a logical statement, or am I not aware of how little we have advanced in space tecnhology? Would it take longer than 30 years because our ships move too slowly? Or is it the fact that we haven't mastered the speed of light that restricts us to our own galaxy?
Image
BadAsh
Posts: 1129
Joined: Fri Jun 06, 2003 5:34 pm
Location: Canada
Contact:

RE: Re: RE:(0x10)

Post by BadAsh »

Yaz it's not magnetic forces acting on everything, it's electrical forces, which are literaly 1 Trillion Trillion Trillion (or something) times stronger than gravity. Also the effect of gravity is inversly proportional to distance, so the farther away it gets the weaker it gets. The Electric cosmos link gives a bunch of really good examples.
User avatar
This_name_sucks
Posts: 539
Joined: Fri Mar 21, 2003 10:55 am
Location: UK, Essex, Southend

RE: Re: RE:(0x10)

Post by This_name_sucks »

DAMN YOU YAZ!!!! I'M T N S, NOT TIME!!!! Time is the subject matter, not the poster :)

You say length and time is a constant, but speed effects how we perceive things. Speed is Distance/Time, so surely one of them is not a constant.

Little interesting thing to think about is that light itself is suprisingly travelling at the speed of light. Those stars you see, might not even exist anymore, but according to the light travelling across the universe, it's still burning merrily away. That is kind of what Yaz meant by seeing things differently in different times.

Perception creates difference. We see stars and planets far away doing things that happened ages in the past. Distance creates that difference that makes time vary. If everything were to exist in one point, then there'd be no such thing as distance. So I'm guessing distance is the variable, as obvious as that may have seemed to begin with.

So I'm not even seeing the cursor flashing in this text at the time it's actually flashing. So every single point in the universe exists in a unique time. So that might be what is meant by the fourth dimension. Everywhere is measured by length, width and height, but each point exists in unique time.

Actually that's even more interesting. Think of light like a piece of clay. You put your hand in it and it keeps the shape, but eventually degrades. Light is a lot like that. The moment light is emitted from an object, it's like freezing mass in time. The energy remains unchanged, unless it degrades, so the image seen remains unchanged for however long the light is moving. So I guess time is unique to matter, whereas energy is isolated out of time, until it interacts with matter.

Now that's interesting! :)

But light is affected by time as well, because light isn't everywhere at every moment. It travels also at a set speed from point A to B, which are dictated by matter. But that is because light energy is, as Yaz said, photons, which are very small masses. Light comes from an object that is excited, which is how a plasma works. Interestingly I think badash's link mentioned stuff about plasmas. So it is perfectly believable that light, having been created by the excitation of particles, is accountable for all of the missing energy in the universe. You can only see light if you're standing in it's path, otherwise it can't be seen.
Just try standing in a dark room with a small window and see if you can see the light entering the room, the only reason you can see it is because of a) Diffraction and b) Dust particles reflecting some of the light. From the side of a light wave, if we imagine it as a piece of string, it can't be seen. Perfect example is fibre optics. Look at the end and there's light, look at the side and there's nothing, although that's due to the critical angle of the fibre.
So there could be light EVERYWHERE, but unless we're standing directly in it's path, we can't see it. Which is why the universe appears dark.

Just a thought.
Image
User avatar
Yazule
Posts: 2404
Joined: Sat Feb 22, 2003 3:44 pm
Location: Behind you
Contact:

RE: Re: RE:(0x10)

Post by Yazule »

length and time are constant, at any particular speed, if your speed changes so does length and time, as percieved by everyone else... to you it all looks the same all the time, but relative to everyone else it keeps changing.

It is not a preception issue, time actually moves at a different rate based on your speed, this time dialation is real, not percieved, it is all relative :). any two tiems moving at the same speed, reguardless of direction exist in the same time bubble, so basically you can say our solar system is in one time bubble because relative to the speed of light the spinning of the earth around the sun is negligable and you cant measure the difference in the time bubbles between earth and say jupiter.

The moment that light is emitted from an object it does not freeze the mass, it only freezes the image of the mass which will pass through space as long as it needs to before it is seen, that is how we can still see stars that have died millions of years ago. ...

as far as time unique to matter and energy is isoloated out of time that is not how it works... everyone knows E=Mc^2 .... energy is matter and matter is energy so that does not work.

Light is not affected by time at all, light moves at the same speed always... if you have light A and light B moving twoards each other their relative velocity is still the speed of light, not twice the speed of light.

vs if you have car A moving at 60 mph and car B moving at 60 MPH twoards each other then their relative motion is 120 MPH... and please dont ask me to explain that, go look at some special relativity info because I dont have the time or energy to explain how it works hehehe.
Image
User avatar
Yazule
Posts: 2404
Joined: Sat Feb 22, 2003 3:44 pm
Location: Behind you
Contact:

Re: RE: Re: RE:(0x10)

Post by Yazule »

BadAsh wrote:Yaz it's not magnetic forces acting on everything, it's electrical forces, which are literaly 1 Trillion Trillion Trillion (or something) times stronger than gravity. Also the effect of gravity is inversly proportional to distance, so the farther away it gets the weaker it gets. The Electric cosmos link gives a bunch of really good examples.
I am not saying that I understand the cosmos and that site is interesting but electricity is not a force, it is an energy, it has to be applied to be a force, so I guess I am still missing the point I guess.

I read that stuff and they are talking about electrically active plasma, plasma being energized atoms where the electrons fall off and you get an electron proton neutron soup... basically this is stars, and it is most of the energy of the universe... but it is created through fusion... with all of these types of new science stuff you cant read the site to get the details so the book has to be read, and I will read it because I am just geek enough. I have read a few such books and normally they talk in concepts and generalities and the problem with most of them is you cant show it with math (which is the language of logic).


That site wets the appetite but there are some things like suns being made due to electricity alone that I will probably have issue with in the book because gravity is a huge factor in formation of suns for example.

What I see is they are converting everything in the universe into energy to describe it. The fact of the matter is that matter is energy and energy is matter. I would have to read the book to give any detailed opinion on how well thought out it is.

it is obvious though that nobody really knows, no matter how much they profess... attempts at inventing dark matter to make the equations balance for example. It is always good to look at things from another angle :).
Image
User avatar
Yazule
Posts: 2404
Joined: Sat Feb 22, 2003 3:44 pm
Location: Behind you
Contact:

Re: RE: Re: RE:(0x10)

Post by Yazule »

Undead_Mercenary wrote:I'm a big noob in all this astrology stuff, so go easy on me...

Ok, so if the nearest solar system is 3 light years away, if I understood correctly, that's 30 years away. Now is that saying that if we had technology that allowed us to travel the speed of light, it would take 3 years to get there, correct?

My brain is telling me that according to this, it would take us 30 years to get to the next solar system (I had solar system in mind when I said galaxy before). Is that a logical statement, or am I not aware of how little we have advanced in space tecnhology? Would it take longer than 30 years because our ships move too slowly? Or is it the fact that we haven't mastered the speed of light that restricts us to our own galaxy?
the speed of light = 299 792 458 m / s
1 year = 31 556 926 seconds

3 light years are 2.8x10^13 KILOMETERS away

you would have to average 106544901 Kilometers/hour to get there in 30 years.

I really dont see us doing a hundred million km/hr in my lifetime :)

*edited due to math errors, came up with a billion km/hr on first calc haha*
Image
User avatar
PJ
Posts: 838
Joined: Sun Jun 06, 2004 8:33 pm
Location: GA

RE: Re: RE: Re: RE:(0x10)

Post by PJ »

what i meant merc, is that the people in teh spacecraft would only age 3 years. But time on earth would go a lot faster, the 30 years thing was just a number it hrew out there. It's called Time dialation (as yaz stated), the easyest way to explain it is a time bubble. I know the nearest solar system is 3 light years away, and I'm very aware that the nearest galaxy is some billion light years away. So getting to a 'new' (not in our solar system) planet would take 3 years at light speed if you were on board the ship traveling, on earth not sure what the math is but it would be much longer. The only way i think we would ever get to another is how they do it in the book "a wrinkle in time" but thats done by magic people.


The whole Ion thing is cool because, einstien says that when approaching the speed of light you get heavyer. But in space weight isn't a factor, so you could accelerate to great speeds. Not sure how the whole ion thing works, but the reason we cant go fast with rockets is the same way a bike goes down a hill. Your petelling down hill going faster and faster untill your pedaling does nothing. Sense space has very few molecules floating around it's hard for rockets to propel them selves any faster, after they reach a certain speed inertia takes over keeping the rocket the same and same direction unless acted apon by some other type of energy. Like i said i don't know if this would effect the ion thing.

soorry if you don't understand. I love space and I love this topic.
Image
Post Reply