BYOC vs Alienware
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Archangelus
- Posts: 4286
- Joined: Mon Jun 24, 2002 9:01 pm
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Thowarr, I started using the mac at work as our product is cross platform so I have to use all three major operating systems.. XP/Vista/MacOS. The new Mac Pro is just simply INSANE. The fact that you can install Windows Vista on it and flip flop between Windows and MacOS is pretty wicked. If you look at the hardware in the Mac Pro it is well beyond anything you build/buy in that price range.. I have no idea how things have turned around like this. I priced out the exact system on Dell and it was thousands higher, which is why I am going with the MP myself.
Also there is a trick with buying a Mac... there is a student ADC (apple developer) program that you can sign up to if you are a part-time or full-time student (program does not have to be related to programming). It costs $100 to join and you fax your course sheet and ID in, but a student developer gets a one time massive discount, the price of the Mac Pro dropped by $700 for me by doing this making it even cheaper
It is very very hard to beat having two quad core Xeons on a 1600FSB.
Also there is a trick with buying a Mac... there is a student ADC (apple developer) program that you can sign up to if you are a part-time or full-time student (program does not have to be related to programming). It costs $100 to join and you fax your course sheet and ID in, but a student developer gets a one time massive discount, the price of the Mac Pro dropped by $700 for me by doing this making it even cheaper
It is very very hard to beat having two quad core Xeons on a 1600FSB.I have no sig.
Ok, I guess what my reservations about it are these:
1) Who/ where do we buy it from? Where do I send it for service? (I've also heard they're tricky to upgrade)
2) What am I losing out vs building something like this myself? You mentioned SLI on the vid cards (I know sort of how it works, but I'm not sure how the two vid cards sync up nor how much of an overall boost this would be) and ECC RAM (huh?)
3) Do they have discounts for teachers, cause that's what I am. If not, how much does this run?
4) How the fuck do switch between two operating systems? I'm not that high speed yet.
5) What am I losing out as far as programs go? I know that some software won't run on Mac's, as some games won't. How do I compensate for this?
6) Reserved for future techie questions
What are IT guys/ gals opinions on Macs? Is it a good computer overall? How much shit are we going to catch from you asses if we go this route? Would it be possible to get a true pro/ con sheet about this, not just some Window/ Mac fanboi posting shit? This is a potential large scale purchase and I don't want to have to come to your places of employment/ homes and skull rape you in front of your boss/ S.O./ children/ dog/ cat/ plants/ dinner/ co-workers/ Mr Hand/ etc... if this turns out to bite us in the ass
1) Who/ where do we buy it from? Where do I send it for service? (I've also heard they're tricky to upgrade)
2) What am I losing out vs building something like this myself? You mentioned SLI on the vid cards (I know sort of how it works, but I'm not sure how the two vid cards sync up nor how much of an overall boost this would be) and ECC RAM (huh?)
3) Do they have discounts for teachers, cause that's what I am. If not, how much does this run?
4) How the fuck do switch between two operating systems? I'm not that high speed yet.
5) What am I losing out as far as programs go? I know that some software won't run on Mac's, as some games won't. How do I compensate for this?
6) Reserved for future techie questions
What are IT guys/ gals opinions on Macs? Is it a good computer overall? How much shit are we going to catch from you asses if we go this route? Would it be possible to get a true pro/ con sheet about this, not just some Window/ Mac fanboi posting shit? This is a potential large scale purchase and I don't want to have to come to your places of employment/ homes and skull rape you in front of your boss/ S.O./ children/ dog/ cat/ plants/ dinner/ co-workers/ Mr Hand/ etc... if this turns out to bite us in the ass
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Archangelus
- Posts: 4286
- Joined: Mon Jun 24, 2002 9:01 pm
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You won't catch shit from me as I think Macs are actually pretty cool, but you can still build your own cheaper and (I believe) you'd have an easier upgrade path.
I'd say research them out and look at them as a hardware platform just like you would Dell, Alienware, or any other. Then make your decision off that.
I'll see if I can find any place that compares the hardware if I get a free second.
-Arch
I'd say research them out and look at them as a hardware platform just like you would Dell, Alienware, or any other. Then make your decision off that.
I'll see if I can find any place that compares the hardware if I get a free second.
-Arch
I know what you are saying Imperil, I like the Macs too but I think when you build your own PC from parts, nothing can touch it for the price. For example :
Motherboard = $150 for a nice P35 or X38 based board
RAM = $100 for 2GB of nice DDR2 memory
CPU = $275 for a Quad-core Q6600 that you can overclock to sinful levels if you like.
Video = $250 for a eVGA 8800GT
HD = $130 for a good 500GB SATA2
Power supply = $175 for a nice 600-800W
Case = I have the Antec nine hundred and love it! ($110)
This is a very fast gaming system, and very affordable.
Motherboard = $150 for a nice P35 or X38 based board
RAM = $100 for 2GB of nice DDR2 memory
CPU = $275 for a Quad-core Q6600 that you can overclock to sinful levels if you like.
Video = $250 for a eVGA 8800GT
HD = $130 for a good 500GB SATA2
Power supply = $175 for a nice 600-800W
Case = I have the Antec nine hundred and love it! ($110)
This is a very fast gaming system, and very affordable.
I hear you guys about the price but it totally depends on the type of system. The quad core Xeons run over a thousand bucks each alone in the Mac Pro and they are just screaming fast. I have a Q6600 PC and compared to the MP it is actually slow Mind you a Q6600 PC is still INSANELY fast for the majority of things. For 3D and graphics/coding it is nearly impossible to beat the Mac Pro at it's price point, you certainly can't build it yourself for that price (matching the hardware, meaning a dual CPU board, two xeons, etc).
1/2) Now Throwarr, you buy from either Apple, Best Buy, or Amazon, and for service you would bring it back to wherever you bought it from. Also I mentioned SLI but that on a Mac it is not possible at all.. you can only do this on a PC. ECC RAM is a little better memory but also costs more, the Xeon chipset needs this type of memory (buffered RAM).
3) They have a 10% discount for teachers.
4) You can install BootCamp and Windows Vista (or XP) and then when you boot the system it will give you a menu (Would you like to boot Mac OS or Vista?)
5) This used to be a major problem but isn't even at all anymore. Only certain software/games run while booted into MacOS, but while booted into Windows you can use any application or play any game at all.
6) Basically look at it this way, with the Intel switch a Mac is basically the exact same as a PC now hardware-wise (uses EFI instead of BIOS but that isn't a big deal at all... EFI is actually more advanced and bootcamp translates BIOS->EFI calls).
Mind you XoR is dead on.. if you are pricing a system and want the best bang for your buck he just laid it out for you. Sure the Mac Pro is a lot faster.. but it is also nearly 3 times the cost.. not nearly as efficient as XoR's posting. Although I would probably switch the 2GB of RAM for 4GB of DDR800 or 1066.. I know you can pick up 2GB packs of 800 for $40 Canadian here.. so 80 for a 4GB set.
Mind you a Q6600 PC is still INSANELY fast for the majority of things. For 3D and graphics/coding it is nearly impossible to beat the Mac Pro at it's price point, you certainly can't build it yourself for that price (matching the hardware, meaning a dual CPU board, two xeons, etc).1/2) Now Throwarr, you buy from either Apple, Best Buy, or Amazon, and for service you would bring it back to wherever you bought it from. Also I mentioned SLI but that on a Mac it is not possible at all.. you can only do this on a PC. ECC RAM is a little better memory but also costs more, the Xeon chipset needs this type of memory (buffered RAM).
3) They have a 10% discount for teachers.
4) You can install BootCamp and Windows Vista (or XP) and then when you boot the system it will give you a menu (Would you like to boot Mac OS or Vista?)
5) This used to be a major problem but isn't even at all anymore. Only certain software/games run while booted into MacOS, but while booted into Windows you can use any application or play any game at all.
6) Basically look at it this way, with the Intel switch a Mac is basically the exact same as a PC now hardware-wise (uses EFI instead of BIOS but that isn't a big deal at all... EFI is actually more advanced and bootcamp translates BIOS->EFI calls).
Mind you XoR is dead on.. if you are pricing a system and want the best bang for your buck he just laid it out for you. Sure the Mac Pro is a lot faster.. but it is also nearly 3 times the cost.. not nearly as efficient as XoR's posting. Although I would probably switch the 2GB of RAM for 4GB of DDR800 or 1066.. I know you can pick up 2GB packs of 800 for $40 Canadian here.. so 80 for a 4GB set.
I have no sig.
Hmmm... you all make very interesting and compelling points. The current issue of PC Gamer just arrived, thanks to Ayla's great care package (Ayla +4; you slackers -50DKP!), and it lists how to build a great gaming PC. Includes price vs performance break down and a good bit of info. I'm going to read over that, look at some sites to price the Macs and consider our options.
Expect more questions!
Expect more questions!
Thursday our mail came and not only did I get a are package from Ayla, but inside was the latest PC Gamer which detailed out how to build "The perfect gaming PC". Fortuitous timing! Ok here's the list of parts he suggests (which is pretty damn nice):
1) Core 2 Quad Q6600 $280
2) GeForce 8800GT $250
3) Cosmos 1000 Cooler Master Case $200
4) NeoPower 650W Anteac $180
5) 122-CK-NF67-T1 EVGA Motherboard $170
6) RaptorX 150GB 10k Western Digital HD $180
7) Corsair Dominator 2GB Memory $350
The system above as is would run about $1610. Some things I'd change for her rig would be to add another 8800GT for SLI, add another hard drive (she wants a larger HD for music/ pics), a larger power supply (850W), probably another gig of memory and she'll probably want a different color case. My rig will be about the same, barring some minor differences.
They benchmarked the system with the following games at close to the highest settings:
3DMark06: 11973
Crysis: GPU: 26fps
World in Conflict: 40fps
Company of Heros: Opposing Forces: 59fps
Half Life 2: Episode1: 127fps
As you can see, we're going with the BYOC route. While I'd love to get us Mac Pro's or Alienwares, we can almost get two for the price of one. So what do you think? How long would a system like this last? What would YOU choose to upgrade/ swap?
Also the final deciding question... Vista or XP? Honest answers for this please.
Thanks for everything =)
1) Core 2 Quad Q6600 $280
2) GeForce 8800GT $250
3) Cosmos 1000 Cooler Master Case $200
4) NeoPower 650W Anteac $180
5) 122-CK-NF67-T1 EVGA Motherboard $170
6) RaptorX 150GB 10k Western Digital HD $180
7) Corsair Dominator 2GB Memory $350
The system above as is would run about $1610. Some things I'd change for her rig would be to add another 8800GT for SLI, add another hard drive (she wants a larger HD for music/ pics), a larger power supply (850W), probably another gig of memory and she'll probably want a different color case. My rig will be about the same, barring some minor differences.
They benchmarked the system with the following games at close to the highest settings:
3DMark06: 11973
Crysis: GPU: 26fps
World in Conflict: 40fps
Company of Heros: Opposing Forces: 59fps
Half Life 2: Episode1: 127fps
As you can see, we're going with the BYOC route. While I'd love to get us Mac Pro's or Alienwares, we can almost get two for the price of one. So what do you think? How long would a system like this last? What would YOU choose to upgrade/ swap?
Also the final deciding question... Vista or XP? Honest answers for this please.
Thanks for everything =)
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Archangelus
- Posts: 4286
- Joined: Mon Jun 24, 2002 9:01 pm
- Contact:
Ok, honest response.
1) I'd definitely do a BYOC as you are.
2) I personally would go with more "slower" (as in CAS latency, not bus speed) timing (i.e 3GB of DDR2 800 w/ CAS latency of 5 than 2GB of DDR2 800 @ 4). Just my opinion. You can get more memory for MUCH cheaper with that small sacrifice and in the end, I don't think it will cost you performance wise a noticeable difference.
3) I'd personally go XP, especially with the performance improvements coming in SP3. Also, you can always upgrade to Vista later and getting XP will become more difficult.
4) XP can only see 3GB of memory (this very well might not be the case in 64-bit mode, but I doubt you'd run 64-bit anyways), so don't worry about necessarily going over this (unless you choose Vista).
Other than that, I think it sounds like a nice rig. Only thing I see missing is a monitor upgrade, or any other peripherals (keyboard, mouse)? I normally don't upgrade these at the same time either, but didn't want to see you overlook anything.
-Arch
1) I'd definitely do a BYOC as you are.
2) I personally would go with more "slower" (as in CAS latency, not bus speed) timing (i.e 3GB of DDR2 800 w/ CAS latency of 5 than 2GB of DDR2 800 @ 4). Just my opinion. You can get more memory for MUCH cheaper with that small sacrifice and in the end, I don't think it will cost you performance wise a noticeable difference.
3) I'd personally go XP, especially with the performance improvements coming in SP3. Also, you can always upgrade to Vista later and getting XP will become more difficult.
4) XP can only see 3GB of memory (this very well might not be the case in 64-bit mode, but I doubt you'd run 64-bit anyways), so don't worry about necessarily going over this (unless you choose Vista).
Other than that, I think it sounds like a nice rig. Only thing I see missing is a monitor upgrade, or any other peripherals (keyboard, mouse)? I normally don't upgrade these at the same time either, but didn't want to see you overlook anything.
-Arch
The whole system looks great man, although I find the RAM overpriced and I would really try to go with 4GB if I were you. Also what motherboard would you put in that system? Regarding XP vs. Vista I've been using Vista x64 since March and haven't had any issues at all and I love it and find XP a pain to use now which is ironic since it is still such a great OS... I just don't like the sluggish desktop compared to Vista.
I have no sig.
Arch-
2) That's the type of info I'm looking for, thanks!
3) True. Also is XP DirectX10 capable? Will it play the DirectX10 games that coming out? I know my video card will be DX10 capable, does the OS need to be as well?
Peripherals- We're both going to get this monitor. I love the 2ms response time and it's widescreen. My current monitor at home is an LG and it's awesome. Plus the price is great. I'm going to stick with the same Logitec Gx518 gaming mouse that I currently have, just because it's a great mouse, though if she wants to switch out that's her call. Also we'll probably stick with the Microsoft Natural Keyboard cause it's great on the hands/ wrists.
Imperil-
5) 122-CK-NF67-T1 EVGA Motherboard $170
It seems like a good board, has a good number of PCI inputs and it has a handy LED Post code display which I find awesome.
I'm still torn on XP vs Vista. I use both daily, have used Vista for the past 6 months, but I like the overall speed of XP better. Plus with XP SP3 coming out and it gaining at least a 10% boost... I might just go with Arch's suggestion and upgrade us later.
Another thing: is there a benefit to going with the x64 version? I know a few of you use it, but is there a performance boost? Is it just for certain applications?
Also (this is for both of you) should I look for a FSB speed of 1333Hz on the MB, or will 1033Hz suffice? Are the manufactors moving away from 1033? I'm just trying to do a bit more future proofing and maybe a bit more speed boost
Final question (in this post)... how the hell do you rig video cards in SLI? Is that answered in the manual? Do I need to output both video connections to the same monitor? Bit clueless in that regard. Understand how it works, but not the physical hook up.
I'm going to start shopping/ pricing items now, maybe talk her into going ahead and purchasing the stuff (heck she might even go ahead and build it O.o). Thanks for the continued help =)
2) That's the type of info I'm looking for, thanks!
3) True. Also is XP DirectX10 capable? Will it play the DirectX10 games that coming out? I know my video card will be DX10 capable, does the OS need to be as well?
Peripherals- We're both going to get this monitor. I love the 2ms response time and it's widescreen. My current monitor at home is an LG and it's awesome. Plus the price is great. I'm going to stick with the same Logitec Gx518 gaming mouse that I currently have, just because it's a great mouse, though if she wants to switch out that's her call. Also we'll probably stick with the Microsoft Natural Keyboard cause it's great on the hands/ wrists.
Imperil-
5) 122-CK-NF67-T1 EVGA Motherboard $170
It seems like a good board, has a good number of PCI inputs and it has a handy LED Post code display which I find awesome.
I'm still torn on XP vs Vista. I use both daily, have used Vista for the past 6 months, but I like the overall speed of XP better. Plus with XP SP3 coming out and it gaining at least a 10% boost... I might just go with Arch's suggestion and upgrade us later.
Another thing: is there a benefit to going with the x64 version? I know a few of you use it, but is there a performance boost? Is it just for certain applications?
Also (this is for both of you) should I look for a FSB speed of 1333Hz on the MB, or will 1033Hz suffice? Are the manufactors moving away from 1033? I'm just trying to do a bit more future proofing and maybe a bit more speed boost
Final question (in this post)... how the hell do you rig video cards in SLI? Is that answered in the manual? Do I need to output both video connections to the same monitor? Bit clueless in that regard. Understand how it works, but not the physical hook up.
I'm going to start shopping/ pricing items now, maybe talk her into going ahead and purchasing the stuff (heck she might even go ahead and build it O.o). Thanks for the continued help =)
Thowarr I have the first revision of that board (which had a couple issues when it came out but were fixed with BIOS updates) and that version you spec'd out is really good I know two people with it that love it. Regarding the 1333Mhz vs 1066Mhz I'd get a board that supports 1333 (which the one you listed does) because Intels newest CPUs use that FSB and all forthcoming will so it has a much better upgrade path.
Video cards in SLI is easy, they just both pop into the PCI express slots and this little bridge thing clamps them together and then you just use the normal monitor out, the video drivers handle the rest.
Video cards in SLI is easy, they just both pop into the PCI express slots and this little bridge thing clamps them together and then you just use the normal monitor out, the video drivers handle the rest.
I have no sig.
What about this one? I see that it supports AMD X-Fire video technology, but will it do SLI? Does the MB have to specifically say it supports SLI? I like a lot of the features on this board and it's only $20 more.
Gah, I feel like a goober.
Gah, I feel like a goober.
Açieeed! style by