Insane book for people interested in economics/super powers:

[Imperil]

"The European Dream" by Jeremy Rifkin

Now I love reading about finance/economics in my spare time, and I have to say this book is superb. Until I picked it up tonight I actually believed a lot of people on the other thread that were talking about "the US controls the global economy", "the US is the richest", etc. It talks about the model the US is built on "dubbed the American Dream" and shows the difference between that model and the new "European Dream" model that builds on the mistakes of the US (note when I say US, the book is mainly aimed at the US but everything said in it applies directly to Canada as well, this is nothing biased)

Here are a few exerpts.. which shocked me a little (until I did some research afterwards for real numbers and found they were indeed correct) because I didn't believe it. I chose some that are from points in the eariler thread:

On exporting and the economy:

Americans are so used to thinking of our country as the most successful on earth, they might be surprised to learn that, by many measures, this is no longer the case. In just a few decades, the European Union has grown to become the third-largest governing institution in the world. Though its landmass is half the size of the continental United States, its $10.5 trillion gross domestic product now eclipses the U.S. GDP, making it the world's largest economy. The European Union is already the world's leading exporter and largest internal trading market. Sixty-one of the 140 biggest companies on the Global Fortune 500 rankings are European, while only 50 are U.S. companies.

On healthcare:

The comparisons between the world's two great superpowers are even more revealing when it comes to the quality of life. For example, in the European Union, there are approximately 322 physicians per 100,000 people, whereas in the United States there are only 279. The United States ranks 26th among the industrial nations in infant mortality, well below the EU average. The average life span in the 15 most developed EU countries is now 78.01 years, compared to 76.9 years in the United States.

Education, Quality of Life, Homicides, Criminals, Jail:

Children in 12 European nations now rank higher in mathematics literacy than their American peers, and in 8 European countries children outscore Americans in scientific literacy. When it comes to wealth distribution -- a crucial measure of a country's ability to deliver on the promise of prosperity -- the United States ranks 24th among the industrial nations. All 18 of the most developed European countries have less income inequality between rich and poor. There are now more poor people living in America than in the 16 European nations for which data are available. America is also a more dangerous place to live. The U.S. homicide rate is four times higher than the European Union's. Even more disturbing, the rates of childhood homicides, suicides, and firearm-related deaths in the United States exceed those of the other 25 wealthiest nations, including the 14 wealthiest European countries. Although the United States is only 4 percent of the world's population, it now contains one-quarter of the world's entire prison population. While the EU member states average 87 prisoners per 100,000 people, the U.S. averages an incredible 685 prisoners per 100,000 people.

Work / Quality of Life:

Europeans often remark that Americans "live to work," while Europeans "work to live." The average paid vacation time in Europe is now six weeks a year. By contrast, Americans, on average, receive only two weeks. Most Americans would also be shocked to learn that the average commute to work in Europe is less than 19 minutes. When one considers what makes a people great and what constitutes a better way of life, Europe is beginning to surpass America.

Now I'm not posting to bash anyone.. I mean Canada is in the exact position as the US, built on an old model that isn't about to change anytime soon.... so don't think I'm carrying a discussion from earlier.

I just talked to someone about some of the things on that thread (because a lot of you guys were right, I did not have 100% facts and numbers, I agree with you), and they recommended this book.

I recommend it to anybody that is interested in the global economy, super-power status, etc. At least one good thing came out of that thread, I'm really enjoying this book


Disclaimer: I should also add that, no, this is not a book smashing the US so don't even think that. It is basically showing what didn't work in the model, and what did work (and what worked excessively well), and comparing it to the world's largest super-power, the European Union.

Also note that Jeremy Rifkin is a prominant American author on the subject of economics, global economy, etc... not just a nobody. Also I've checked all the stat numbers possible so far from what I've read and everything checks out so far.


Also I apologize for jumping the gun on some issues in that old thread, you guys were right I didn't know 100% of the facts, although I hope you can realize you didn't either.

What I found VERY surprising (and very true) is that if you ask your average Canadian or American, the majority of them actually couldn't tell you what the EU is, when it was formed, etc.. and most definately wouldn't be able to tell you that it has the largest economy and one of the largest world super powers. I guess we just default to thinking that North America is still on top of things because we live here and NA was at the top for such a long time.

[XoR]

It may be true the EU is bigger in scale than the USA, but there isn't a place on earth with as much opportunity than right here in the USA.

Bottom line in life within the USA : It's up to you.

I don't need a government to buy my healthcare, I buy my own in the private sector. And if you can't afford healthcare, get a better job.

Success is bred from a state of mind of taking charge of your life, not waiting for an institution to take care of you.

[Yazule]

http://www.scaruffi.com/politics/gnp.html

america's GNP is 1/3 of the entire world's ..... after that factoid came up I decided to ignore the rest

just remember that europe is many countries, so now you are talking "continental" GPA .... silly rabbit trix are for kids

(yes 2000 figures not 2004)

[Yazule]

oh what the hell

http://www.wallstreetview.com/GDPRankings.html

that is world GDP (stuff vs money)

look at that, america is #1 there

economic monster that we are yes

that link sucked for some reason, here is another source from 2003

http://www.worldbank.org/data/databytopic/GDP.pdf

notice it is done by the world bank, not usa

[Yazule]

for those who like pictures, the area each country takes up represents the GNP of that country

http://www.debtireland.org/schools/OHP- ... y-size.htm

[1nst1nct]

hah u guys at it again hehehe have a pie or something dont make me skool u all.

[Imperil]

america's GNP is 1/3 of the entire world's ..... after that factoid came up I decided to ignore the rest

just remember that europe is many countries, so now you are talking "continental" GPA .... silly rabbit trix are for kids

Yaz did you read what I said about most people in NA not knowing what the EU is? You said "Europe" and continent.. I'm not talking about Europe at all, and neither is the book... I said the European Union which has a higher GNP compared to the US on those exact charts you've shown.

The European Union is basically adopting the same model as the United States in some ways. There are 15 seperate countries (in the US called states) with a single governing body, rules, finance, economics, etc.

It is still quite new, and has only been formed and went through revisions in the last years. I mean when you look at the economy you say the US right? You don't say New York, etc, etc. The European Union is a merger of countries policies, trade (ie free trade working exactly as inter-state in the US), currency, etc.

Those graphs you showed actually prove the GNP point is right on par! With 2000 statistics if you want to get the GNP of the Europian Union you would have to add up the 16 resulting countries (think of them as states if you wish) and you will get the correct result.

I mean the EU obviously has a higher GNP, it is IMPOSSIBLE to show otherwise. The currency of the EU is the Euro, which is worth $1.24 USD right this second.


Just please note, Europe is not the European Union, and just as I stated in the original post most Americans don't know the difference at all.

With the recorded data you provided you have to add the following GNP figures:

Austria
Finland
Greece
Italy
Spain
Portugal
France
United Kingdom
Ireland
Belgium
Netherlands
Luxembourg
Denmark
Sweden
Germany

and compare that number to the US figure.

EDIT:

I actually forgot about the additions in May:

Cyprus
Czech Republic
Estonia
Hungary
Latvia
Lithuania
Malta
Poland
Slovakia
Slovenia


It works in almost the EXACT same way the US does, except it fixes a lot of the mistakes that were made. Each country (declared a state under the European Union) has the main figureheads, laws, currency, etc (think of it as the US federal government) which are elected by the states.

The states then retain power for various things like some laws, etc.. although all major things such as currency, etc are through the EU (again think feds)

The EU operates EXACTLY the same as a country, both internally and economically. The only main difference between that US and the EU is that due to the long history of the states, each one retains their status of being a single country and their name on a map.. although in reality the EU is the controlling body and "country" if words really bother you much, and that's just about it.

[Dr.Death]

http://www.wilmingtonstar.com/apps/pbcs ... 1010/State


Before you start boasting about the EU, rean about how they don't want to let Turkey into the EU. They don't want to let them in because, well basiclly they are a pore ass country. This article goes into alot of details on what the EU thinks about Turkey. To me, it seems that the EU's qualifications are based on strong econimies and political policies.

[Imperil]

http://www.wilmingtonstar.com/apps/pbcs ... 1010/State


Before you start boasting about the EU, rean about how they don't want to let Turkey into the EU. They don't want to let them in because, well basiclly they are a pore ass country. This article goes into alot of details on what the EU thinks about Turkey. To me, it seems that the EU's qualifications are based on strong econimies and political policies.

I totally agree with you about the EU's qualifications. As I said they are building up on a model that is very similar to the US but they are fixing the mistakes.

I mean honestly if you think about it, if you could reform the United States and leave out about 20 or so of the lowest producing states, than you would have almost the exact same GNP but you would also have money for healthcare and other social programs. That is in effect what the EU has accomplished.

Sure it sucks to be Turkey, but that's the way it is. I mean they aren't being kicked out of anything, and there aren't any heavy regulations against them, they just have to improve their economy before joining.

[Archangelus]

We did the same thing with our participation in NATO. You had standards regarding who could be a member. Same thing here. It does suck to be Turkey, but it would be like us admitting a new state to the Union. Don't you think we'd have requirements and standards.

[Dr.Death]

Well of course we would have standards, but we wouldn't not let someone in because they are a Muslims and not Christian. I think NATO is a little different in this situation. My view of NATO has always been the police of the world. When some jackass invades a small country(Saddam-Kuait) we all join together and woop some ass. I don't know much about this kind stuff, but these are the oppinions I made.

[Yazule]

hmm, EU, yes know about it, also know that many people (not countries) in europe dont like it.... and from that point of view, with NAFTA, that would be a north american economic union....

in the end, USA is the big dog, the "stuff makers" and the "designers of new technology" and the "spenders" .....

I dont feel any need to comment further except to note that two of the worlds bigger GNP's are Japan and Germany,(not to mention france) two (three) countries that the USA redeveloped after wwII... we gave them the infastructure to produce stuff and sell it. Funny thing is in the 70's and 80's they had more state of the art manufacturing due to america building them up and USA companies not upgrading fast enough....

so you can thank the US for most of the EU's GNP lol

I am outa this thread, impossible to convince you, and yes I am right.

[Imperil]

You are right by saying the US is highly commercialized and some of the biggest spenders.

But there is no saying the EU has a lower GNP, I mean numbers don't lie. Also comparing NAFTA to the EU is out of the ballpark, the EU is exacly the same model as the US with some changes (The EU and US have the exact same economic and government principals, etc). NAFTA is completely incomparable considering there is no governing body with laws, there is no single currency, etc.

And I totally agree with you that the reason they surpassed the US in a lot of technology, etc is because they were putting in new infrastructure while the US was not upgrading.. I mean hell there are still huge corporations using custom DOS applications on Windows 95 because they don't see the need to switch as long as it works.

I would never say that the EU would have gotten to where it is now without the US, all I stated was where they are currently at.

Also you need to look at the flip side of the coin.. you said:

so you can thank the US for most of the EU's GNP lol

You realize that you can thank Isreal, Saudi Arabia, Britain, and France for most of the American GNP right?

There is always a cause and motion. One nation does not build itself out of nothing, and there is always a new super-power nation emerging after so often that basis itself on a previous one but fixes mistakes made.

[Imperil]

Well of course we would have standards, but we wouldn't not let someone in because they are a Muslims and not Christian. I think NATO is a little different in this situation.

Ah but this is where you are not seeing the complete picture. Turkey believes they are not in due to their religion.. which in PART is true. Do you want to know what the major points are in the religion that the EU will not accept that are part of law?


Shame Killings - i.e. A man or his sons are legally allowed to murder the mother or any women in the family if they feel they have shamed the family in any way (i.e. Adultery, etc). Now this does not have to be proven.. they just have to have a hunch that it happened. Please don't think that this is not a common thing in that country right now.

Torture / Violation of human rights - this is obvious, it happens daily in Turkey STILL to this day.

Economic destruction / Instable government - The government structure is new and a bit shakey and unstable. Time and time again the EU has given Turkey chances with trade and the economy but Turkey has done the wrong things. FYI Turkey is not just applying now, they have been trying to join back when it was 6 countries and before it was renamed to the EU. It is close to 40 years they have wanted in.

The EU has denied Turkey access not because they are Muslim, or because they are poor... it is because much of the country engages in merciless tortures and killings and it is daily routine and follows the laws because the extremist Muslim religion grants it.


What is the only reason the EU would let Turkey in? To expand farther.. look at Turkey's borders. If the EU can expand into Egypt, Saudi, Iraq, Iran, etc.. than they would basically dictate the world.

[Thowarr]

Here is my ONLY post on this subject and to this person:


Amnesty slams Canada's criminal record
Monday, October 4, 2004 Posted: 6:39 PM EDT (2239 GMT)


OTTAWA, Canada (Reuters) -- Canadian officials and police are ignoring a spate of brutal attacks against aboriginal women, at least 500 of whom have vanished or been murdered over the last 30 years, Amnesty International said Monday.

In a stinging report, the human rights group condemned what it said was Canada's "terrible official indifference and apathy" toward native women, particularly those who end up in the sex trade.

"How many more lives must be lost? How many more indigenous women will be murdered, how many more will go missing before the Canadian and provincial governments are moved to action?" said Amnesty's secretary-general Irene Khan.

Aboriginal activists have long complained that police and officials across Canada show little interest in trying to find out what happened to the missing women, and Khan said they were among the most forgotten members of society.

"(The report) reveals an appalling state of racial discrimination and cultural prejudice, of economic deprivation and social marginalization, of official indifference and government failure," she told a news conference in Ottawa.

Many of Canada's one million aboriginal people live in poverty on reserves with inadequate facilities, and their plight has long been one of Ottawa's deepest embarrassments.

Canada spends around $7 billion a year on its native population, but living conditions and life expectancy remain well below the national average.

"Internationally the Canadian government has taken the lead on many human rights issues... Canada must implement at home that which it implores others to do abroad," Khan said.

The report said police often failed to protect the women, who were particularly likely to face poverty, homelessness and prostitution as well as "acts of extreme brutality" by men.

"In every instance, Canadian authorities could and should have done more to ensure the safety of these woman and girls," said the report.

No one at the federal ministry of aboriginal affairs was available for comment. The Royal Canadian Mounted Police said it could not comment until it had seen the report.

source- http://www.cnn.com/2004/WORLD/americas/ ... index.html

We still let you in the G8. We have our problems, you have yours, so does the rest of the world.

Arch, can you stop these posts please? They're assine and serve no purpose.